On this episode of the Six Five Webcast Infrastructure Matters, hosts Dion Hinchcliffe and Camberley Bates share a conversation on critical insights from the recent earnings season, including notable updates from Lenovo, Cisco, and Kyndryl, alongside a deep dive into the latest developments in Large Language Models.
Their discussion covers:
- Key takeaways from the latest earnings season for major tech giants
- Updates and highlights from NetApp, Pure, and Veeam announcements
- Insights from the CIO Insight Study, focusing on what CIOs need to know about LLMs
- A look at the LLM performance leaderboard, understanding the bigger picture
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Disclaimer: Six Five Webcast Infrastructure Matters is for information and entertainment purposes only. Over the course of this webcast, we may talk about companies that are publicly traded and we may even reference that fact and their equity share price, but please do not take anything that we say as a recommendation about what you should do with your investment dollars. We are not investment advisors, and we ask that you do not treat us as such.
Transcript:
Camberley Bates: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Infrastructure Matters again. We are episode 62. I am here with Dion Hinchcliffe. Keith Townsend is on the road. He’s been at KubeCon. So we’re going to have to wait till next week to hear everything about what he’s been doing. If you haven’t caught him, he’s been wearing that cowboy hat all the way from-
Dion Hinchcliffe: His hat had been all over the country this week.
Camberley Bates: Tall man and hat. There we go. Lots of earnings this week. Really strong things coming out. Of course everybody knows how the market has done really well. Thank you very much for whatever politics that have contributed to this, if they have. We’ve got that to cover. We have got some … just a bit of AI, super computing stuff that’s coming up, because next week it is big SuperComputing 24 in Atlanta. And then Dion has got some great CIO study results. He’s going to walk you through what we’ve got there as well. Let’s start out with some of the earnings because Kyndryl just released theirs early this morning. Early, early, early. Hong Kong time, I believe is what it is, or China time. Really incredible numbers. They’re up 24% in revenue.
Dion Hinchcliffe: Wow.
Camberley Bates: I know. I was like, “Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait a second, let me peel that thing back there.” Pretty much double-digit growth all the way through, whether or not it was the device group which has got the PCs and the phones and everything else, or whether or not it’s the ISG group which has got the servers and the HPC and the storage. The big number was ISG up 65%. Now they had been kind of pressed down a bit, and then they’ve taken off. Storage and software is up 35%. Neptune, which is all the scream and yell that I know we’re going to hear out of SuperComputing because I’m seeing all the pre-announcements for it, which is the liquid cooling capability, which is super rage. In fact, I have a meeting with Valvoline next week. Yes, they’re at SuperComputing. It’s kind of …
Dion Hinchcliffe: Who would’ve thought?
Camberley Bates: I took it just because I’m curious about what’s going on. It’s not that I really cover it. The only thing I’ll mention is that while highly profitable in terms of the PC grouping and the services grouping, the ISG has still taken a little hit on an operating loss. Much less than it was before. But they’re still working on profitability there, which means to me saying, “Okay, so I’m not sure if a lot of their market take this time around was because of the pricing actions, or whatever they’re doing, but I know there’s a lot of competition in there to get the footprint, et cetera, that’s in there.” Congratulations to them. Still, I think we’ll probably see next quarter, as they go through the next quarter, they’ll probably get to the profit on that group, but that’s what’s going on there. You had Cisco-
Dion Hinchcliffe: Yeah, Cisco released their earnings this week. It wasn’t actually that bad. But the market wasn’t thrilled overall and the stock is down this morning. I’ve been following the Cisco story since the beginning, way back in the day. What a storied company. Literally defined the tech world in the ’90s and early 2000s. Their networking sales fell, actually, in this quarter. It’s their security products that are doing particularly well. They really surged. But one bright spot in networking was artificial intelligence. Of course that’s the topic du jour. As they apply it to networking, they’re actually doing … those sales did pretty well. They’re able to prove that they have a path forward as they’re trying to find out, “Where are they going to be in this new age of AI?” They don’t have an AI product. Forecast was just okay. I think it’s disappointing to me to see what … I think they had tremendous potential and they just couldn’t figure out how to remake themselves the last couple of tech generations. We’ll see what happens with them.
Camberley Bates: I’m really surprised to hear that the networking is down, but that may be because there’s more competition coming in the markets with everything-
Dion Hinchcliffe: Oh, yeah, I’ve been touring network makers. Last year, I did a tour of Europe. There’s just much lower-cost places that can provide extremely high equipment, high quality equipment. A lot of these factories are incredibly … Most of them are entirely automated. So that from the time they’re putting the chips on the PCBs to the time they’re packing these things in the boxes, a human has never touched it. It’s amazing. Literally, just pallets come out the other side of the factory. In my experience, Cisco has amortized … not upgraded their factories to the extent that these guys have. So I just don’t know how they’re going to compete.
Camberley Bates: Wow. Changes in how we manufacture, for sure.
Dion Hinchcliffe: Yeah.
Camberley Bates: The other big earnings that I took a look at was Kyndryl. That was the week before. Kyndryl, as most of you know, is the spin-out of the outsourcing business from IBM that happened a couple of years ago. It’s been a big turnaround. I mean, people scream and yell about whatever their earnings are because they’ve been showing losses of money, but it is a turnaround business. What’s happened over the last two years is they have really gone through and prioritized accounts. Getting rid of the low margin business that they had that probably for IBM made sense. Because maybe low-margin services, but you made it up on the hardware kind of thing. Might’ve been why they took those deals, but they were … I’m not sure if that … That’s my speculation.
Dion Hinchcliffe: Well, used to be, to get the deal on the IBM side, they would have to provide the services to make that deal successful. They made money on one side, but they might not make so much money on services. Now, Kyndryl doesn’t have that option. They have to be a much higher quality business in general.
Camberley Bates: Yeah. This is definitely … They have moved in. They grew the business in terms of the revenue there. In terms of subscription or renewal … I should say the renewal contracts are way up. So the customers are coming back to them. They have created Kyndryl Bridge, which is a AI ops tool that completely manages, that the customers use as well as Kyndryl uses, that has had a significant impact on their labor costs in terms of the staffing about how many fingers and hands do you need on the system to operate.
Dion Hinchcliffe: That’s a margin creation tool. Yeah, that’s amazing. I’ve been bullish on AI ops for years. IT has been way too manual for way too long, because it’s so much variability in edge cases. But AI seems able to tackle that. That’s a great story. I’m glad to see that.
Camberley Bates: It sounds like it’s really fascinating. As well as, one of the things we heard back when the CrowdStrike happened, Kyndryl didn’t have the problems that the other people had. This is part and parcel part of this Kyndryl Bridge capability as well that they have. To me, they are well on their way to being a very formidable player into this market and bringing out the services that are needed. Yeah. Oh, the other piece that really came up for them is they have grown their cloud business significantly. So their partnership with AWS and Azure. They didn’t really talk about Google much, but the AWS and Azure pieces, they’re really working with our clients to help them understand where things go, as well as mainframe modernization. That might be using the cloud for doing probably mostly development kind of work, but that’s the other place that they have really grown their business.
Dion Hinchcliffe: Yeah, it’s great to see what they’ve done with that. Of course, IBM doing so well. I mean, IBM is practically resurgent these days. People kind of discounted them for so long and they’re really doing good. A lot of that is going to flow back over to Kyndryl as well. I think they’ll get a lift from that long-term partnership obviously.
Camberley Bates: There were some other announcements. As I said, we’re going into SuperComputing. My inbox is just massively filled up with all kinds of things that are at SuperComputing. It’s sold out for a lot of reasons. SuperComputing used to be … I would call it the little propeller head kind of folks that were there. It was all PhD people. A lot of students down there. It was the reign of all the research institutions as well as the labs. Now it is probably going to be ground zero for AI, I guess, is what we’re going to see.
Dion Hinchcliffe: I would absolutely concur. Yeah. I used to do number crunching. We had HPCI performance computing for all these statistical and analytical tasks. Now they’re finding intense relevance in the AI space. It’s fascinating.
Camberley Bates: And one of the big themes out of there … coming through, as I can see with the announcements happening, is all about liquid cooling. It’s not my core coverage area, but there is a rash of announcements going on, on liquid cooling. That goes back to when I was talking about Lenovo. Neptune is up 38%.
Dion Hinchcliffe: Power density is everything, as it’s turning out, because GPUs are getting bigger, faster, then their performance is improving. They’re finding it easier just because it’s already massively parallel chips. They’re just building bigger and bigger GPUs. The power density is causing a real cooling problem. So liquid cooling has come back from languishing to the hottest technology to build a modern data center. It’s all about AI, GPUs, and getting rid of all that heat, which is a real real problem.
Camberley Bates: Which I think is really necessary. Very, very much so necessary. We’re going to see new types of data centers that are set up in those environments. The other areas … I’m going to cover the rest of the announcements next week because there are so many coming out. We’ll kind of lay them out. We had a few other announcements that were not SuperComputing based. NetApp came out and refreshed almost all of their product line. Their entire All Flash FAS A-Series, as well as your C-Series. So the high-performance ones in the C-Series is their capacity one at the QLC. They’ve done some refresh work with StorageGRID, and bringing out, clearly, QLC over there.
And then the little-known guy called the E-Series that they have. That nobody ever talks about but we’ve kept on covering it because we’ve known that it’s been very powerful in the HPC market. It’s the old LSI boxes that they bought many years ago. For a while there we thought they were going to jettison that thing to the other side. But now that AI is back, you have to talk AI and HPC. You’ve got your north-south capabilities, which is going to be the E-Series. East-west is going to be their other products in terms of how they’re going to address the market and the needs that are there. That’s those guys. And then Pure had a little bit of an announcement that was this low-end entry level box, which it seems like a lot of people are driving to that low-end entry level box to address the HDD market. That needs to migrate … is needing to migrate off of HDDs over to solid state, we think. This kind of runs that down. You had some really big announcements on AI stuff, on language models, right?
Dion Hinchcliffe: That’s right. Google recently just released a new language model with the exciting tag of 1114, which I guess they’re putting a date on the time they release their model. But for the very first time, Google AI has a model at the very top of the AI leaderboard. If you look at lmarena, which has really become the definitive standard for how different large language models rank, Google is at the top. ChatGPT has been dethroned. Claude’s been up there a few times. But GPT-4, or some flavor of GPT-4, has been at the very top for almost the entire time the lmarena’s been out. Google finally can say that they have the most superior, highest performant AI LLM. That’s a big deal. Google really needs this.
Google frankly has really struggled to make inroads in the cloud community. Microsoft is almost ascendant. They’re growing fashion Amazon. I have projections I’ve done, that within four years, it’s actually possible Microsoft will eclipse Amazon. Google really has been this very consistent number three. They just haven’t had a standout service. To have the best AI service is a really big deal for them. If they can stay up there, this is going to be really good across the board for Google Cloud. They really need that shot in the arm. So it’s good to see because we need competition as we saw the CrowdStrike, having an IT monoculture is not a good thing. Where everyone’s using exactly the same thing and everyone ends up with the same problems. We need a healthy mix. We need competition. This really shows that Google’s in the AI game in a big way. I was really glad to see that one.
Camberley Bates: So, maybe for our listeners, you could talk about what lmarena is all about. We’ll post the link in the notes someplace so you guys can go to the leaderboard on site. Talk about, what are they measuring? How are they measuring?… How do people that are your normal, everyday CIO use that data?
Dion Hinchcliffe: Well, yeah, absolutely. It’s very hard to compare apples to apples in the AI world. Or it was at least for a long time. And then the industry developed these large suites of very sophisticated test panels. They might have 10 or 20,000 very sophisticated language reasoning word problems. They really stress test a language model. They’ll have a reasoning test suite, a math test suite, and a variety of other test suites that have all been standard. Anyone can download these. Anyone can see what the test data is. You can test your own LLMs or your own internal models against these benchmarks. They’re now very easy to run. lmarena, what it is, it’s a site, I got to look up the URL again, at lmarena.ai. You can see, in real time, all the latest models and how they perform against each other using a standard test suite. You can see how well do they reason, how well they do math, or whatever it is. Math is really important because large language models are notoriously bad at very deterministic outputs… They do much better at probabilistic type work. You can see this. Models are optimizing for these different test suites so that they can actually do them better and better.
So lmarena shows how these large language models shape up, who’s at the top. If you have a cutting-edge use case or you just want to future proof your organization, you can see whose ascended, whose staying up there at the top and consistently putting out the highest quality, most performant AI models. lmarena updates the results. As soon as they complete a benchmark, they post the new results on the leaderboard and you can see how everyone’s doing. I do encourage you. It’s a great way to stay abreast of how the models are doing. You can see open-source models closing in on the commercial models. Normally commercial models are at the top and then the open-source ones are at the bottom, but the open-source models are climbing up. It’s a really good way to stay abreast very quickly, if you’re an IT leader, on what’s going on in the AI world.
Camberley Bates: Are you really expecting the enterprises to switch different LLMs they’re going to be using on a regular basis? I mean, wouldn’t they as a normal practice kind of go with one and stick with one for a period of time?
Dion Hinchcliffe: Well, it’s been hard to say. I mean, that’s a great question, Camberley. The belief was that there was going to be regular breakthroughs in LLMs and that you might want to switch. Or that LLMs might … certain LLMs might be much better at a different task. That’s certainly proven out in terms of cost effectiveness. The cost effectiveness is where models are really varying now. Like, IBM has a new model …
Camberley Bates: Granite?
Dion Hinchcliffe: Sorry, say that again.
Camberley Bates: Granite?
Dion Hinchcliffe: Yeah, Granite. Which is very highly performant. It’s not at the top of the leaderboards, but it’s 10 times cheaper to run. That’s a really big deal for the CIO who has to deliver IT on a very well-defined budget that their CFO really encourages them to stick to. We’re seeing AI’s causing overspend all over the place, budgets are breaking everywhere, because it’s very expensive to run. Yeah, it is important. In most companies will end up with several dozen to several hundred different models that are optimized for either very specific tasks. There’s now large language models … or, sorry, medium-size models for IT service management. They’re really optimized for that task. They’ve been trained in that world. An IT department might want that because it could be up to a hundred times cheaper to solve a problem using a medium-size LLM optimized for IT use cases. So yeah, there will be, I think, what we call model gardens or model hubs in most enterprises. We see that forming now.
Camberley Bates: Okay. That’s the next generation of what we’re going to be seeing in the enterprise. Also, why your toolkit, the flexibility of the toolkit that you’re deploying now in terms of the enterprise, needs to be there. In terms of being able to swap out whatever to get the latest stuff.
Dion Hinchcliffe: That’s where Google and Amazon have made big bets. They say you can run any model in their environments. They give you some default models they have that are very good. But they specifically create environments where you have these large well-managed model gardens that have all the right guardrails on them and run them consistently. So yeah, I think that’s, that’s the future.
Camberley Bates: Yeah. We’re going to continue on. For those of you who don’t know, Dion is our CIO leader for the company. He’s got a very strong following in the market. We had been working on, Futurum has been working on publishing decision-maker, trending information, survey work in multiple different areas. We’ve come out with revving over right now AI chips. We’ve got cybersecurity. We have app development, out there, data, as well as market sizing data. In particular, what Dion has been working on is CIO Study. Doesn’t have an official title yet, but right now CIO Study is good enough. Very, very exciting. Not only is it the survey work, but it’s also you’re spending time with these guys on a daily basis talking to them. So getting that voice and that power of what’s going on on their mind. Maybe you can give a few highlights about what’s going on. It’s going to be out at the end of the month. You’re looking at sometime around November 30th, as we’re going into-
Dion Hinchcliffe: Thanksgiving. Yep, exactly.
Camberley Bates: Thanksgiving. Maybe you can give some highlights about what’s coming out with this data, and what’s it looking like.
Dion Hinchcliffe: Yeah, absolutely. We do have a working title, it’s called CIO Insights. You’ll be able to get this data, drill down and slice it and dice it inside the Futurum Intelligence platform, if you have a subscription. As we update the survey, you’ll be able to see live. Most people only get insight into what the largest IT buyers in the world are doing every year, but we’re going to provide a snapshot every quarter. It’s interesting to see. There’s some obvious results in the study. We see that 90% of CIOs are going to focus on leveraging AI for strategic transformation or automation in their business. That shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone. I can confirm that signal, AI was the clearest signal in the survey. But also, legacy. What are we going to do about the 30 to 40 years of IT we’ve accumulated? 80% report that they’re really focusing on prioritizing migrating legacy apps to the cloud specifically. That’s the largest signal I’ve seen on that trend. It’s always been a steady grind, “We’ve got to move to the cloud.
We’ve got to do something about all our legacy,” but there was a big uptick. I think as application portfolios age out, a lot of the old hardware and a lot of the old systems, they’re having to retire those. Now is the time, if you’re going to make the move, to go to the cloud. We’re seeing a lot of migration off SAP on-prem, for example, to SAP Cloud. In my CIO conversations, that’s also been one of the hottest topic. Everyone’s doing an ERP migration right now, to the cloud, is what it feels like out there. Talent issues remain one of the biggest challenges, that was almost as big as the leveraging AI story. That they just can’t get the right talent to deliver on what they need to do in terms of new development in IT, which is mostly around things like AI and analytics and cloud migration. Getting the superstars is hard because the superstars are really moving to the tech companies and the big service providers. If you want to want to work on a bunch of really fun projects all the time that are in a bunch of different fields and get the top of your game, you often will go to a service provider because you’ll be working on a bunch of really exciting projects that are constant flow, instead of building something and then going in the maintenance mode for 10 years. That’s a real challenge.
I think probably one of the most important signals is very loud signal on, “What are we going to … What CIOs are going to do? Where are they going to put their cloud workloads?” We’ve seen this rising up the last two years. Saying, “Well, is public cloud always the answer for every workload that … a new workload that we create?” We started seeing last year, the answer was no, it’s not. There are, for certain, always on very high performance workloads, like training AI models, it might not make sense to pay that whole CapEx bill, marketing, cost of sales, everything to a cloud provider just to run your workload. It might make sense to colo or build a specialized data center, a small data center, for very high performance workloads that would create a very large bill from your hyperscaler. So 71% of CIOs are re-evaluating across the board where they’re going to put their workloads in the future. The signal was they’re not moving a lot of them now, but they’re in the middle of re-evaluation. So expect big changes in the industry over the next couple of years around that.
Camberley Bates: Okay. How do you resolve that last statement that you said, “71% are re-evaluating where to place the workloads,” and the other piece of data, which you said, 60%, they’re trying to move their legacy workloads to the cloud? I mean, the legacy workloads have got just as much data, good data, that they’re concerned about letting out of their four walls because of privacy and IP, etcetera. Those seem to be contradictory statements.
Dion Hinchcliffe: That’s a very good insight. Exactly. What you have to realize is that when people say cloud now, they don’t mean public cloud, they mean a cloud model. It could be private cloud. There’s a whole raft now of providers that are saying, “Well, we’ll give you a cloud. We’ll give you a pay-as-you-go cloud. That could be in our data center, it could be in a colo data center, it could be in a hyperscaler, or it can be your data center. It’s all one pane of glass, one stack, one everything.” That’s why companies like HPE are doing so well, in that they’re saying, “You need to have that choice. You need to have the flexibility to run the workloads wherever. Out on the edge, in your data center, in the hyperscalers, wherever it is, you need to have one stack and have one management console, one pane of glass to manage it all.” So when we say cloud, we mean the whole spectrum, public and private and edge. When they say they’re moving into the cloud, that’s what they mean. It’s that whole spectrum.
Camberley Bates: Well, that actually even may pan out well for a Kyndryl kind of discussion, right?
Dion Hinchcliffe: Yeah. Oh, yeah, of course.
Camberley Bates: You know, “I’m giving you … Here it is. Here’s the tools, etcetera,” depending upon what you’re looking for. Yeah. Looking forward to see the data coming out and seeing where it’s going. That’s very, very exciting stuff. I think we are at … Actually, I’ve got one more item I forgot to mention. Yeah, at this week, I was at the Veeam Analyst conference. Veeam is a data protection company. Used to be this cute folks that were always taking care of all the VMware environment. Well, they’re no longer the cute little guys. They’re big. They’re a big firm. They should top out at over $1.7 billion this next year, which is pretty significant. When they do an analyst … they bring us all in. Want to tell us how wonderful and great they’re doing, and where they’re going, etcetera. They had the entire executive team there, the COO, CFO, CEO, CRO, etcetera.
Dion Hinchcliffe: Yeah. Yeah. All the C.
Camberley Bates: Yeah. Actually, we did get time to talk to … I sat down with the CFO. He was talking about where they’re going and how they’re going, how they’re going to reach it. But the big thing that they’re betting on … They built their company on VMware and explosion of VMware. Then they’ve grown out and built out to more of the enterprise. I won’t say that they can completely take over TSM or IBM Protect or NetBackup, but they’re doing a darn good job in some areas, of taking a big chunk of that, modernizing the data protection capability work. The other big thing that they did, and this is where their announcement was this week, is working with Azure. The first use case that we’ve seen a lot of the enterprise go to is using the cloud to do a vault, or do whatever they’re going to do up in the cloud, is doing the data protection. It’s just a great place to place it, get rid of the tape. They’ve got rid of the tape or whatever they were doing. One of the problems with doing that is if when you start restoring, you have egress fees, you have API fees. So what you think is the cost of storage ends up tripling or quadrupling in terms of cost with all the other charges that come along with it.
Dion Hinchcliffe: I research egress fees and one of … the number one reasons that people move to a private cloud for that exact reason, if you have very, call it, chatty workloads.
Camberley Bates: They have negotiated with Azure. They now have a service offering that you’re just going to pay … you just pay them. They’re covering the storage cost or whatever cost, “Here’s the cost.” Even more importantly, since Microsoft came out and said, “You have to protect your Office 365 capability. That’s not our responsibility. That’s yours. Take care of it,” they have doubled down on that market. I think really smartly what they have done, instead of saying, “Okay, I’m going to charge you for terabyte,” or whatever, “I’m going to charge you by user.” Just so, “I have a user, and I have data protection, I know my costs are … Here’s my cost. It doesn’t make a difference.” It’s just kind of like that click on, add on to it. It’s a really strong joint relationship with them. That shouldn’t take anybody by surprise because if you look at the C levels, they’re all former corporate vice presidents of Microsoft. Anyway. It was a great conference. We’ll have a note coming out with it. We’re not sure which of the stuff we can talk about yet, because they said everything was NDA. We’ll publish some commentary on it. But they’ve got some big, big growth plans. I think that they’ve got the group there to make it happen. Well, that is 30 minutes. Oh, my gosh.
Dion Hinchcliffe: I can’t believe it.
Camberley Bates: It’s amazing how fast this time goes. Guys, thank you very much. Next week, we will have all three of us back. Lots to talk about. We’ll break down KubeCon, SuperComputing. Dion, where are you going this week? Are you home this week or are you traveling?
Dion Hinchcliffe: Not this week, but next week we have Microsoft Ignite in Chicago. That’s a very big event. I’ll be-
Camberley Bates: Are they? Is that a big event?
Dion Hinchcliffe: Yeah. Yeah. I think some people have heard of them. I’ll be broadcasting the CIO Pulse report live from the show floor. It’ll be fun.
Camberley Bates: Great. All right, guys. Thank you very much. Have a great week.
Author Information
Camberley brings over 25 years of executive experience leading sales and marketing teams at Fortune 500 firms. Before joining The Futurum Group, she led the Evaluator Group, an information technology analyst firm as Managing Director.
Her career has spanned all elements of sales and marketing including a 360-degree view of addressing challenges and delivering solutions was achieved from crossing the boundary of sales and channel engagement with large enterprise vendors and her own 100-person IT services firm.
Camberley has provided Global 250 startups with go-to-market strategies, creating a new market category “MAID” as Vice President of Marketing at COPAN and led a worldwide marketing team including channels as a VP at VERITAS. At GE Access, a $2B distribution company, she served as VP of a new division and succeeded in growing the company from $14 to $500 million and built a successful 100-person IT services firm. Camberley began her career at IBM in sales and management.
She holds a Bachelor of Science in International Business from California State University – Long Beach and executive certificates from Wellesley and Wharton School of Business.
Dion Hinchcliffe is a distinguished thought leader, IT expert, and enterprise architect, celebrated for his strategic advisory with Fortune 500 and Global 2000 companies. With over 25 years of experience, Dion works with the leadership teams of top enterprises, as well as leading tech companies, in bridging the gap between business and technology, focusing on enterprise AI, IT management, cloud computing, and digital business. He is a sought-after keynote speaker, industry analyst, and author, known for his insightful and in-depth contributions to digital strategy, IT topics, and digital transformation. Dion’s influence is particularly notable in the CIO community, where he engages actively with CIO roundtables and has been ranked numerous times as one of the top global influencers of Chief Information Officers. He also serves as an executive fellow at the SDA Bocconi Center for Digital Strategies.
