On this episode of the Six Five Webcast – Infrastructure Matters, hosts Dion Hinchcliffe, Camberley Bates, and Steven Dickens discuss traversing the evolving landscapes of AI and mainframe technology. This episode delves into exciting developments in AI while asserting the continued significance and innovation within mainframe computing.
Their discussion covers:
- The recent breakthroughs and applications in AI that are shaping the future.
- The enduring importance and modernization of mainframe technology in today’s digital era.
- How businesses are leveraging both AI and mainframe technologies to drive digital transformation and operational efficiency.
- The challenges and opportunities presented by integrating AI with legacy systems.
- Predictions for the future of AI and mainframe technology in the wider tech ecosystem.
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Disclaimer: Six Five Webcast – Infrastructure Matters is for information and entertainment purposes only. Over the course of this webcast, we may talk about companies that are publicly traded and we may even reference that fact and their equity share price, but please do not take anything that we say as a recommendation about what you should do with your investment dollars. We are not investment advisors, and we ask that you do not treat us as such.
Transcript:
Dion Hinchcliffe: Hello and welcome to Infrastructure Matters, episode number 60 and this is the first episode in which I get to host. This is Dion Hinchcliffe, I’m head of CIO Practice for The Futurum Group, and I’ll let my two distinguished guests and colleagues introduce themselves.
Camberley Bates: Well, good morning guys. This is Camberley Bates, you know me. Calling in from Colorado. We’re trying to get into the fall. We haven’t had real snow yet. So if you’re booking your ski trip, be a little wary of it right now.
Dion Hinchcliffe: Nice and cool here in the Leeds. Starting to turn here in D.C. So…
Steven Dickens: Well, coming to you from Rhinebeck, New York, I’m Steven Dickens. We’re at the end, October is kind of leaf peeping month here in the Hudson Valley, and we’re at the end of it. Last week was sort of peak week, so no snow yet. Snow up on Whiteface where my kids keep getting excited about skiing but we’re not there yet. So, busy week this week. How you been Dion?
Dion Hinchcliffe: Well, it’s been an interesting month and we’re right in the middle of tech conference season. We’ve still got about one month to go. I know I’ve got a lot of events coming up, but there has been a bunch of news this week. I also visited some CIOs for my practice, but let’s get into TechXchange. I think something happened there this week. Steven, were you there?
Steven Dickens: Yeah, so Keith Townsend, who’s not with us today, he’s recovering in the fetal position after a busy week and I’ll be doing that later. But no seriously, IBM’s trying to really bifurcate its conferences and I think it’s a really strong approach. They had IBM think… Which is in May, that had previously been IBM’s kind big show. And what they decided to do, which I think is very wise, is split their shows. So this week was TechXchange. If IBM Think is the kind of executive decision maker, thought leader conference in the IBM Canada, TechXchange is the practitioner and developer conference. So this is where you go and get your certifications, you do your hands-on labs, very different vibe. I’ve got this sort of ratio that I use, the sports coats to hoodie ratio for conferences and this was definitely a hoodies conference, really good event. Year two, still building, but really good… Graham Noseworthy, the event organizer and kind of coined the term that people did about him being the mayor of TechXchange. Really trying to focus in on growing this event.
Some big announcements, the Granite 3.0 stuff, which I know Dion, you are going to cover. I just got to spend some time with a couple of distinguished engineers on Instruct Lab, so that was really fascinating. Got to geek out on the mainframe stuff. One of the big announcements from one of the partners at the show, is an open source project around Zowe that’s been going for five years. That’s now getting to the point where that’s starting to get deployed into production environments on the mainframe. The mainframe guys are a little slower to put open source into production and one of the barriers to that has been enterprise support. So the guys at Broadcom offered enterprise support to their clients for Zowe. Key thing for… Lots of talk about Broadcom and how they add value versus charge for things right now more broadly. The mainframe division within Broadcom decided to offer that enterprise support free of charge to any of its clients.
Dion Hinchcliffe: I think it’s great that we’re seeing open source finally appear in any kind of meaningful way in the mainframe. But Steven, just for those not in the know, can you give us a thumbnail explanation of what Zowe is?
Steven Dickens: Yeah, so Zowe’s really trying to open up the platform, try and provide that sort of open source democratized access into the platform. So I don’t want to describe it as an API layer, but that’s probably the right way to think about it. This is taking away some of the proprietary nature of the platform and making it the plumbing and some of that interface and developer piece consistent so that various vendors, so Rocket also offer enterprise support. I met with their SVP, Phil Buckellew while I was at the event. They’ve been offering the enterprise support of Zowe for a couple of years now. So I think it’s starting to see this layer is being adopted across the board more and more.
Camberley Bates: So Steven, I’ve got a question regarding to the open source and Linux. Linux is much more hardened of course than Windows as we talked about with the CyberStrike that we had or some of the strikes, CrowdStrike situation we had. But mainframe has always been known and I’ve always admired it for its high availability and its security. By going to open source technology on a mainframe, are they going to be able to maintain those capabilities there that we’re looking at? I don’t know what it is, eight nines, nine nines, some sort of ridiculous.
Steven Dickens: Eight nines.
Camberley Bates: Eight nines. Can they bring to market eight nines on that kind of platform?
Steven Dickens: Yeah, so I mean the good thing for Zowe and Zowe’s on the ZOS side, not on the Linux side, so it’s core into the core value prop. I think the main contributors to Zowe are Broadcom, IBM, Rocket. There is obviously open source community members, but the key founders of that code, what came from those three vendors. So it is a full open source project. It’s a project under the Open Mainframe project, which is a Linux foundation project. So it is kind of got all those characteristics. There’s no sort of proprietary nature of this. It’s nothing weird. But I think with the main contributors coming from those mainframe software vendors, they’re absolutely worried and paranoid about all the things that they would be if it was their own software. So I think you’re getting the best of open source and a community, but you are also bringing that value from those vendors who are traditionally sort of focused in on the platform.
Camberley Bates: And the other thing I would comment on there from the IBM earnings is that Arvind talked about how the mainframe, I believe it was Arvind, talked about how the mainframe had grown 30% IOPS growth within, it appears within this cycle of the current 16, Z-16 that we have. So that’s to me…
Steven Dickens: That will be MIPS growth. Not IOPS growth.
Camberley Bates: Sorry, MIPS growth, sorry guy. But that seems to me pretty dramatic growth for that space.
Steven Dickens: MIPS is a bad measure of growth and it’s the one thing I don’t like IBM talking about. The overall revenue was 19% down. That sounds bad. It really isn’t bad when you look at where they’re in the cycle. They’re 10 quarters into the Z-16 cycle. I’ve seen drops as much as 50, 60% this late in the cycle. So the fact it’s 19%, they were up 8% in the ninth quarter, which was last quarter. So I think you’ve got to look at it balanced. They’ve already announced. We know that’s coming next year. We don’t know exactly… Well, I know exactly when, but I probably shouldn’t say. So I think talking about earnings from IBM, which was the other big news that happened during the event. Top line growth, again, low single digits from IBM, but top line growth, red hat, good double-digit growth power.
I’ve spent some time with the power team this week. They’ve turned their business to a growth business and a profitability business, which, where they were with the open power stuff a few years ago and how that business was unraveling, is a real kudos moment for Tom McPherson who leads that business. So I think I see some strong fundamentals across the board, across IBM. I think the next… Probably Q4 will be okay for the mainframe, Q1 and Q2 are going to be… Probably Q1 will be tough, last quarter of the cycle and they’ll have pulled all the business forward into Q4. So that’s going to be tough. I think Red Hat’s strong growth, the AI business starting to show some strong numbers, consulting, drafting off that AI piece. So I think it’s a good story all round. I’d like to see higher single digits from IBM, but I think we’ll see that once that mainframe early part of the cycle starts to come through.
Dion Hinchcliffe: Interesting times for for IBM in general. And that really highlights two AI pieces of news that I’d love both of your feedback on. The first one was news we heard last week but was announced this week. Granite 3.0 was released by IBM. Now Granite’s not really been talked about a lot in broader AI circles and that’s probably an oversight. IBM hasn’t… I think missed the AI cycle the first time around with Watson and then it finally went big. But IBM has gotten very serious about large language models designed for business and Granite 3.0 is their new flagship model. The new 3.0 version has three different flavors. One is just the general purpose you can use for inference, for all sorts of things. And it’s designed to have an optimal cost for inference but still be high performing. So it can match most or come very close to most of the popular models like Open AI or Anthropic or any of those. Yet it is significantly cheaper. They’re really focusing on the enterprise need for, “I need performance, but this has to be cost-effective, it has to be affordable.”
And that’s where IBM’s really trying to differentiate itself. They also have a Granite guardian model which is optimized for safety. So you’re trying to use this in more sensitive applications like healthcare, financial services and things like other regulated industries. You can use Granite Guardian and get an extra level of safety at a small cost for the performance or cost. And then they have a new mixture of experts model too. So there’s something for everybody in Granite and you’ll be hearing lots more about this and I think that IBM’s really pragmatic views, we’re going to provide high performance, but we’re going to make it cost effective and we’re going to have all the enterprise sensibility that you expect around safety, security, compliance and trust. I don’t think… That’s coming at the right level and if their benchmarks hold up, I mean it’s impressive work and I think you’ll see Granite being used by enterprises, especially existing IBM customers.
Steven Dickens: Yeah, I mean I think I just see IBM as the grownup in the room when it comes to AI from the consulting point of view. What they do with InstructLab is really fascinating for me. Then when you tag it to a… I think I’d describe it as a pragmatic approach to models with Granite. It may be not as sexy as Llama and Claude and some of the other stuff that we see in the big arm waving and image generation and all the things that make it easy for the consumers to get their head around on X and the press to talk about. But where enterprises are going to be, that’s a very different story. And I think what I picked up from this week at TechXchange and what you’ve just said there, Dion, I think IBM is going to be seen by a lot of big enterprises, attestation some of the work they’re doing around regulated industries that focus on cost. That’s just all pragmatism and that’s I think IBM focusing on what it’s really good at and what customers see them focused on as well.
Dion Hinchcliffe: I agree. But Camberley, what do you think? I mean I just don’t see IBM getting at bat with the people who are already using IBM. Do they have a chance here?
Camberley Bates: Well… Where their chance is? I’m not sure about the Granite piece of it, where their chances is what they’ve done a very good job of their… Usually have done a very good job of consulting and that’s probably why the Wall Street wasn’t particularly pleased with their earnings because the consulting dragged their earnings down, their lack of it. And Tip traditionally, they have been in the forefront of helping people envision where they’re going, what they’re doing and delivering on it. So the fact that that was down, is concerning, but I haven’t gotten into the depths of that, so I can’t really comment about the why’s and wherefores and where those numbers kind of came down on. But yeah, that would be my concern.
Dion Hinchcliffe: And it’s interesting you brought that up, is their point of the spear for IBM consulting with AI is this new Granite 3.0, they made that clear, that’s the default model they’ll be using for all their IBM consulting.
Camberley Bates: But it also might be… Well maybe not because, and if you look at where the AI dollars are coming from, the majority of it is a percentage of their… A high percentage of it is coming from consulting, not infrastructure technology. So that’s another issue that you would look at in terms of when we looked at the numbers and what they’re doing. So yeah.
Steven Dickens: I mean from an infrastructure point of view, they’ve got SPYRE. Now that came through with a relatively soft launch, but they announced that, that’s going to be also included in the Power 11 processor and systems when that comes out next year. I mean IBM’s got this SPYRE sort of DPU type layer that’s now going to be in the Telum 2 processor and the Power 11 processor. So that sort of AI accelerates piece. So from an infrastructure that’s going to take a while to show up in IBM’s earnings, because I’d imagine that’s going to be mid to end of next year before it starts to get shipped across both of those systems. But they’re certainly playing in this space. But I’m with you Camberley on, I was disappointed in the consulting numbers. I was expecting more.
Camberley Bates: I pulled up my notes that I wrote down on it and one of the things, if you look at the book of business, quote, unquote, I think this was from Kavanaugh, we exited 90 days ago, IBM at above $2 billion, 75% of that was consulting and now that book of business is building, is at 3 billion now, but it’s also saying 80% of that business is consulting. The flip side of that is their hybrid cloud piece of it, which is really dominated by, I believe it’s dominated by the Red Hat, that thing’s going gangbusters. And so they bought Red Hat in 2019 for 34 billion. At the time, we were like going, “Where the heck? How are they going to get the payback on that?” And-
Steven Dickens: 11 times revenue at the time.
Camberley Bates: They’re looking at… They’re going to turn that, payback is going to be next year with the growth of Hats and looking at, as we look at containers, OpenShift is that piece of it. And they’re also looking at the growth of virtualization that they may have the ability to take on. And as we continue-
Dion Hinchcliffe: They certainly claim to, they think that all the challenges that Broadcom has brought to VMware’s customers is going to be-
Camberley Bates: Yeah, we’ll see.
Steven Dickens: Well IBM’s also got HashiCorp that’s due to close, whether that closes this year. I haven’t heard an update on when that’s projected to close, but it can’t be that far away.
Camberley Bates: No, they talked about it a bit, but they didn’t say when. But they had a reflection on that, especially-
Steven Dickens: I mean Dinesh in his keynote for TechXchange was talking about automation and sort of hinting to where HashiCorp is going to fit in. I hope they take the model that they did with Red Hat and run Hashi separately and standalone and kind of let that be as a community.
Dion Hinchcliffe: They risk really killing the magic of that company.
Steven Dickens: Bluewashing HashiCorp would be a mistake.
Camberley Bates: Since we’re on the topic of AI, and I know this is kind of an odd kind of place to go, but Cohesity, which is one of the up and coming data protection devices that’s out there and the noise on them is they’re acquiring part of Veritas, which will make them well over a couple of billion dollar in revenue, I think is where they’re going to end up being. But they launched this thing called… And I’ve been scratching my head on this one. I have been going, “Why the heck are they doing this?” Because MBU is much bigger. NetBackup is much bigger than Cohesity. It means it’s probably two thirds of revenue or something like that. But Gaia is their quote, unquote, generative AI search capability. Okay, data protection, generative AI search capability, scratch your head, figure this one out, it all of a sudden clicked.
So what they were showing, and it was really cool what they were showing, Gregory Statton, who is their VP of AI solutions, was showing the demo of this. So because you’re a file system, because Cohesity is a file system and I have all the abilities to do that file system and analysis of that data that’s been backed up, that is sitting there, it’s solid data, whatever, I now can apply some generative AI. They’ve got an open AI LLM behind it. I’m adding in my data, selecting whatever data files I want from that, which has been backed up, that I can look at. So I can bring in NetApp, I can bring in Dell, I can bring in whatever, I go and select the files that I want. It produces a really cool visual of a word cloud. So we’ve all seen word cloud. So I select all this data, I get this word cloud.
And so imagine I’m looking at… And one of the things he was talking about is like, “Okay, somebody just walked out the door.” I go, “Grab his data from his computer, load it all up, give me a word cloud…” And then it’s giving me the suggested questions to ask for that word cloud. And now I can click down into this word cloud, this very visual thing. And I thought, “God, this is great.” And talking to Greg Statton and I’m super excited because he’s a cool, cool guy in terms of this visual thinking. He said he’s talking to people and, “Yeah, okay, I got this data, what do I ask it?” And so now I’ve got the general-
Steven Dickens: Having the data being one thing, but knowing how to interrogate it being a completely different thing?
Camberley Bates: Exactly. Okay, so here’s what you might want to drill into. And so there’s levels that I could go into with that word cloud and have it suggest, kind of thing. So I thought, “Okay, so this is dangerous having the AI think for me about what I should be thinking.”
Dion Hinchcliffe: On the other hand, it did just train up on all that data so it actually knows what’s in there. So probably it’s well positioned to suggest what you might want to look at. Right?
Camberley Bates: But now, imagine how much data an MBU has got. Granted it’s not a total file system over there. So there’s work to be done, but that’s where this is going. They didn’t confirm that. When I suggested that, they all looked at me as like…
Dion Hinchcliffe: My concern is around preserving security and permissions access to all that data. That’s going to be the tricky part. If they can do that, then that’s I think going to be usable. Otherwise, the concern is that people get access to information they shouldn’t.
Camberley Bates: Right. And I brought that up. They have a tool called DataHawk. I haven’t really drilled down into where that is, but they’re absolutely… I brought that up to you. Where’s the PII stuff? Where is all this stuff about how you do it? So there is a discipline around it, but this was… Visually, this was really fun. It was really fun.
Dion Hinchcliffe: Yeah. Well, I think we’re going to see AI in everything. And speaking of AI, my second bit of news is not on the consumer side, but more on the new players. And that is, Anthropic this week to a lot of fanfare and it’s getting an intense amount of attention in the AI space. Enabled or added direct computer use to its Claude model. And this allows Claude to actually interact with any application or any computer interface you give it. It can click, it can read the screen, understand the feedback, you can ask it to learn an application for you and then carry out actions within it. It can click buttons, type text. And the reason this is such a big deal, is one, you’re handing direct control of our apps and IT systems to AI, you can actually interact with it directly. And this goes right to the whole agent-based AI discussion, which has up until now, really been focused on APIs.
Now it seems that we’ll be training these new models on APIs and creating a bunch of synthetic data so that they can figure out how to carry out requests with it. This takes all that away. You can out any application. It even works on mobile devices. It is really astounding and it has lots of security implications. In fact, there’s really open-ended concerns in my book about what this all means when you’re handing control to a large language model of your computer system. But the demos out there are just-
Steven Dickens: Nothing could go wrong there. Could it Dion?
Dion Hinchcliffe: What could go wrong? Exactly. I can get really low level AI governance. I mean we have low maturity AI governance in most organizations and they’re just not ready. They don’t have the guardrails to all the things that can go wrong and the bad guys can use this to try and hack any system as well. And I thought there would be some screening of users, but no, they really want to get out ahead because agent-based AI is the next big wave. Companies like Salesforce and IBM are leaders in that. But this puts Anthropic out front of anybody right now. So…
Steven Dickens: So Dion, is this a, “Let’s just break everything, and see what goes wrong.” Type model. It’s moved
Dion Hinchcliffe: Really fast and break a lot of things. Yeah.
Steven Dickens: Is it the classic sort of San Francisco tech startup, let’s break things and then fix it on the backside?
Camberley Bates: Yeah, but this is not being a good citizen.
Steven Dickens: Well, yeah, that’s-
Dion Hinchcliffe: It was going to happen. And it has been happening in the open source side, but not in a high performance model. Now Claude is really at the very top of the benchmark. So now you’re handing an incredibly capable smart AI to carry out any requests via any set of applications you give access to? I mean, what could go wrong?
Camberley Bates: Okay, so this brings up when you think about what could go wrong. So this week the SEC had some penalties for violating a disclosure of the solid wins impact onto companies like Unisys is paying a million dollars or more so, on terms of not being disclosed what the impact of Sullivan’s was. That made me think, “Okay, so this next…” I would suspect no matter who gets into the presidency in Congress, they’re going to pass something this next year on AI diligence and now, we are going to get into that piece of it. Whoever’s going to do that would be SEC or the FCC on this diligence that they are going to have to put around, how you implement and execute on your AI capabilities, especially interfacing with clients.
Steven Dickens: I mean, my challenge with that is, we were talking about regulation nine months ago on large language models and it was about the size of the model and the industry has now pivoted to small language models. So if we’d have put that regulation in place nine months ago, it would’ve been completely redundant because the industry is now focused on small language models. If we put regulation to regulate what Claude did this week, for instance, by six months time we’ll have moved to somewhere else. And the technology… I don’t know whether the regulators can… I mean we can barely keep up as analysts, let alone-
Dion Hinchcliffe: I think what Europe has done, they learned a lot from GDPR, which it was very hard to implement and millions of companies are constantly in violation of it because this is so hard to comply with. So I think Europe learned its lesson and the AI Act makes regulations that cover all AI, says, “Let’s do first principles. First, don’t use it in any life critical systems, don’t use it in weapons, don’t use it in all the obvious places we never want to see AI.” And so I think that’s the better approach is saying, “Here’s the most important thing wrong with AI is, don’t use it to fly planes, for example. We don’t want our LLMs to do that yet until we understand a lot better about what it can and cannot do well, and so…
Steven Dickens: I mean the challenge with that though, Dion, you’ve got organizations like Palantir who’s stock price is going crazy this year because they’re bringing AI to the defense community. I mean-
Dion Hinchcliffe: That’s always been the criticism of AI. Palantir’s already used in all the DOD’s fusion centers… Sorry, DHS’s Fusion centers everywhere where they bring data from every agency, fuse it together using AI or pre-generative. And yeah, there’s always been a concern with those guys.
Camberley Bates: So are your CIO buddies all worried about this in raising-
Dion Hinchcliffe: Well, that’s my last piece of news, is I’ve met in San Ramon, California, the CIO of Chevron hosted the SDA Bocconi’s Center of Digital Strategies, our quarterly CIO Roundtable and one, CIOs don’t want to talk about AI anymore at all because that’s all they ever talked about. So that was not a topic of discussion. Their big concern is, what’s coming over the next two years in terms of IT fragmenting the supply chain. The concern is that around 2027, the belief is that Taiwan could be at least blockaded and this is going to really suddenly make cloud costs skyrocket. No one knows for sure, but you have to plan for it. They can’t put their head in the sand because they have to assume that something could happen. There’s a high probability that something could happen there. And then just a lot of them moved a lot of their outsourcing to India from… They moved some of their operations from China because it’s increasingly hard to operate in China.
They moved them over to India. Now India is playing around with maybe joining BRICS more seriously. I mean, they’re already in BRICS, but they’re considering doubling down now. They’re like, “We have to move again.” What happens if India goes all the way over to BRICS? Then we probably have to move out of India and find some new place, which they’re not sure what that is. So there’s a lot of concern around chips and cloud and just these new geopolitical alliances are causing a lot of potential churn. And so they have a lot of drawing boards not knowing what’s going to happen, trying to figure out how these alliances are going to shake out, where they’re going to get chips from, where they should move their cloud workloads. So it’s interesting times.
Steven Dickens: Yeah, I mean I think we’re going to see the resurgence of Intel. I think we’re at the bottom with Intel, but I think just the whole industry is going to come back towards a US-based chip manufacturer and designer.
Dion Hinchcliffe: And that’s an option that they’re all looking at too. Or moving to South America, South America because it’s close to the American time zone, there’s also starting to look more and more attractive.
Camberley Bates: Maybe that’s the blessings, some of the blessings coming out of… If we can imagine blessings coming from out of tragedy, which is like COVID. Because that’s what woke us up to this, it was the COVID shutdown and the supply chains. We went, “Holy crap, we need to do something differently.”
Steven Dickens: Shine the light on where all this stuff was coming from. And I think just, we didn’t talk about Taiwan as much as we are now three, four years ago. It was just these chips magically appeared in our servers and in our data centers and we didn’t know where they came from. I think everybody does now.
Dion Hinchcliffe: I think the hard lesson also is it’s… We’ve got to fix some of our regulations. It’s taken… They’re trying to build ship plants here, but it’s taking five times longer than it takes, let’s say.
Steven Dickens: We’ve got to just fast track that stuff, get out of the way and just let Intel and Samsung just build, build, build.
Dion Hinchcliffe: Yeah, totally agree. Well, that’s all the time we have this week. Thanks for joining us. We’ll be back next week with episode 61 and hopefully our colleague, Keith Townsend will rejoin us and thanks everyone for watching.
Author Information
Dion Hinchcliffe is a distinguished thought leader, IT expert, and enterprise architect, celebrated for his strategic advisory with Fortune 500 and Global 2000 companies. With over 25 years of experience, Dion works with the leadership teams of top enterprises, as well as leading tech companies, in bridging the gap between business and technology, focusing on enterprise AI, IT management, cloud computing, and digital business. He is a sought-after keynote speaker, industry analyst, and author, known for his insightful and in-depth contributions to digital strategy, IT topics, and digital transformation. Dion’s influence is particularly notable in the CIO community, where he engages actively with CIO roundtables and has been ranked numerous times as one of the top global influencers of Chief Information Officers. He also serves as an executive fellow at the SDA Bocconi Center for Digital Strategies.
Camberley brings over 25 years of executive experience leading sales and marketing teams at Fortune 500 firms. Before joining The Futurum Group, she led the Evaluator Group, an information technology analyst firm as Managing Director.
Her career has spanned all elements of sales and marketing including a 360-degree view of addressing challenges and delivering solutions was achieved from crossing the boundary of sales and channel engagement with large enterprise vendors and her own 100-person IT services firm.
Camberley has provided Global 250 startups with go-to-market strategies, creating a new market category “MAID” as Vice President of Marketing at COPAN and led a worldwide marketing team including channels as a VP at VERITAS. At GE Access, a $2B distribution company, she served as VP of a new division and succeeded in growing the company from $14 to $500 million and built a successful 100-person IT services firm. Camberley began her career at IBM in sales and management.
She holds a Bachelor of Science in International Business from California State University – Long Beach and executive certificates from Wellesley and Wharton School of Business.
